Today I’d like to present a hypothetical as a follow-up to my post yesterday (The Destructive Teachings of Lordship Salvation and the Perseverance of the Saints). Let’s imagine what a Calvinist couple would say to their children about Jesus, salvation, election, and perseverance of the saints if they were completely honest about what Calvinism teaches.
These characters are not based on any family I personally know. They are a compilation of what I have learned, observed, and experienced regarding the core teachings of Calvinism over many years. My post continues after the conversation.
The Story Background
Matt and Lindy are faithful members of a Calvinist church and believe their pastor and elders teach the truth from the Bible. They deeply love their three children ages 10 (Ian), 8 (Emily), and 5 (Kirsten). The children attend Sunday School and weekday evening children’s groups so they have grown up learning about Jesus and the Bible.
But the children have started asking questions that can’t go unanswered. Their questions have to do with Jesus, salvation, and going to heaven.
So Matt and Lindy decide the best way to handle this is to have a conversation as a family. This is how an honest Calvinist family discussion would go. Please note the word honest.
The Honest Calvinist Family Conversation
Matt: Your mom and I wanted to have a talk as a family about Jesus and going to heaven. You kids have been asking great questions lately and we want to answer them. So let’s take some time tonight and we’ll go over your questions. So, Emily, you had a question after church on Sunday. Do you remember what it was?
Emily: I asked about how we know we’re going to heaven.
Matt: That’s right. Do you remember what I said?
Emily: You said that Jesus died on the cross so everyone could go to heaven.
Matt: Did I say everyone? I should have said Jesus died on the cross so the elect could go to heaven.
Kirsten: I thought Jesus loved everybody. That’s what you tell us.
Lindy: Well, Jesus does love everyone but He doesn’t choose to save everyone.
Ian: If Jesus loves everyone, why wouldn’t He want to save them?
Matt: Well, God only chooses some to be saved. That’s what the Bible calls the elect.
Ian: Elect sounds kind of like election like when we vote for a president and stuff.
Matt: It is kind of like that. Except rather than us voting for a president, God chooses the people He wants to be in heaven.
Kirsten: Doesn’t God want everyone to be in heaven?
Lindy: Well, God does and He doesn’t. He really only wants the elect to be in Heaven with Him.
Ian: Well, who gets picked to go to heaven with Jesus?
Matt: It’s kind of complicated, but to make it simple God chose some people before the world was ever created to be in heaven with Him. So those are the people who will be in heaven. God makes sure of it.
Emily: So God doesn’t love everyone? Why would He only pick some? Does that mean all the rest go to hell?
Matt: Because man is so wicked God really doesn’t have to pick anyone. He could send everyone to hell and it would be perfectly right for Him to do that. But He chooses to save some people. Isn’t that great of Him to do that? I mean, compared to how holy God is people are really wicked and no better than worms. But He is so loving and kind He chooses some anyway.
Kirsten: Does God think I’m a worm, Daddy? Am I worm or am I chosen? I don’t want Jesus to think I’m a worm! (Starts crying)
Lindy: Oh, honey. Daddy didn’t say you are a worm. The Bible says we’re all worms but God chooses to love some of us anyway.
Emily: Well, how do we know if we’re a worm or if God loves us? How do I know if God loves me? I thought Jesus loved the whole world!
Matt: Well, we choose to believe that Jesus died for our sins and we try very hard to do the things God tells us in the Bible to do. If we do those things then we can be confident that we’re one of the elect ones that God loves.
Ian: What if we mess up? How good do we have to be? How much do we have to follow the Bible? I don’t even understand most of the Bible.
Lindy: Well, it’s hard to tell. We just keep trying as best we can and hope that at the end of our life we are still loving Jesus and we finally prove that we’re saved by persevering to the end.
Emily: But I want to know now! I have to wait my whole life to know if Jesus loves me? I thought Jesus loves everyone. What if He doesn’t love me? What if I’m a worm? Are you and Daddy elect? How do you know?
Matt: We don’t know for sure, but we’re pretty sure we are. But it is possible that we’re not the elect. We won’t truly know until we die. Then we’ll know.
Emily: What if you and Daddy are saved and I’m not? What if Ian is saved because he’s a boy and the oldest and I’m not? What if Kirsten is saved because she does better than me? Does that mean you’ll go to heaven to be with Jesus without me and I’ll be all alone in hell? I don’t want to go to hell. Why would Jesus want me to go to hell? I want to be in heaven with you and everyone else!
Matt: I know this is really hard to hear, but this is how God chooses to best glorify Himself. He chooses some people for His glory and He doesn’t choose others. But it’s important for us to remember that even when God doesn’t choose some, He’s still glorified and that should be the most important thing to us.
Ian: So we don’t even get to choose? God just chose for us and never even asked us what we wanted?
Lindy: Well, you did choose. God knew what you would choose before you were born. God knows what everyone would choose before they were born. He didn’t have to ask you because He’s God and He already knew.
Kirsten: So I didn’t choose God before I was even born? How could I not choose God if I wasn’t even born?
Lindy: No one would choose God because we’re all totally dead in our sins. We’re so dead we don’t even have the ability to choose really. But God does something special so those He chooses want to choose Him.
Matt: Look, I know this is kind of confusing. It’s kind of confusing for your mom and me. But we have to trust that God is just in what He does. He’s sovereign and He can do whatever He wants. We don’t have the right to question His choices. We’re just little humans who are nothing compared to God. And if He chooses to save some people and not others then we really don’t have any right to complain. We’re not God. He didn’t have to save anyone. But He was so kind to save at least some of the people on earth.
Emily: So no one knows who is going to heaven? And we don’t get to ask? Won’t God let us ask Him to go to heaven if we really want to? I didn’t want to make a bad choice before I was even born. Don’t I get another chance to make a choice? I have to keep the choice I made before I was born? I don’t want to if I made the wrong choice! So maybe Jesus doesn’t love me at all?
Matt: Honey, try not to worry about it. The fact that you are upset and want to go to heaven means that you probably are one of the elect. So you should live like you are and trust that God will work it all out to His glory. That’s what is most important after all. We need to focus on God’s sovereignty and glory and not what we want.
Ian: So God might not want any of my friends to be in Heaven? Why do I invite them to things at church if God might not love them?
Lindy: We tell people about Jesus because we don’t know who God has chosen and who He hasn’t. So we tell everyone about the gospel. Only God knows.
Ian: But if God didn’t choose my friends, then they don’t get a choice.
Matt: That’s true in a way. But we still need tell people about Jesus because that’s what the Bible tells us to do.
Ian: But if Jesus doesn’t love them then I’m lying to them.
Matt: I know this is hard to understand. Your mom and I will try to do our best to help you. For now, it’s important to know that Jesus died so some people can have their sins forgiven and go to heaven. We are all going to live as though this is true for everyone in our family because we’re all baptized into the covenant. Remember we told you about how you have all been baptized into the covenant? That means we can all live as though we expect to be part of the elect going to heaven unless we fail and show we really aren’t. I know this is complicated. But let’s trust God’s sovereignty and expect that in the end we will all be together in heaven with Jesus.
Emily: But we don’t know that! What if I’m not good enough? I make a lot of bad choices! Sometimes I’m mean. Sometimes I don’t want to listen to you read the Bible. Does that mean I’m not saved? I don’t want to wait until I die to know if Jesus loves me! What if He doesn’t love me? Does Jesus love grandpa and grandma? They stopped going to church a few years ago. Does that mean they don’t love God anymore? Does that mean they have to go to hell because they stopped going to church?
Lindy: I think grandpa and grandma still love Jesus so we can hope they have been faithful enough to go to heaven.
Matt: Look, it’s bathtime so we should wrap this up. I hope this has helped a little. These are big questions that can be hard to understand. But your mom and I love you and we’ll keep helping you try to understand.
If you think I have exaggerated this dialog in any way, I present these quotes from prominent Calvinist preachers, teachers, and publications. Bold are mine.
Men are worms
Fallen man is a maggot that feeds on filth and dead bodies (Job 25:6). Even David confessed that he was a worm (Psalm 22:6). John Calvin said fallen man is a “five-foot worm.” Liberals and even naïve evangelicals have sometimes substituted sinner for worm in Isaac Watts’ famous hymn, “Would He devote that sacred head for such a worm as I?” Men are worms whose hunger is never satisfied, as Jonathan Edwards said, “They are like a filthy worm that never feeds so sweetly as when feeding on carrion or never has its nature so suited as when crawling in the most abominable filth.”
The Depth of Depravity from Founders Ministry
Rejoicing at Loved Ones Burning in Hell
“Don’t you know that when you’re in heaven, you’ll be so sanctified that you’ll be able to see your own mother in hell and rejoice in that, knowing that God’s perfect justice is being carried out.”
R. C. Sproul via Calvinism’s Systematic Theology (and how to fend it off)
Viper in a Diaper
“People who don’t believe in original sin don’t have children. … That’s a viper in a diaper. The angry cry happens early. The demanding cry happens early. The stiffening up of the body, that happens early. … One of the reasons God makes them so small is so that they won’t kill you. And one of the reasons he makes them so cute is so that you won’t kill them.”
Voddie Baucham via Calvinism on babies and young children
God’s Preordained Plan
We speak first of all of the doctrines of grace. Teach your people that they are utterly depraved and dead in their sins without God. Teach them that God chose the elect for salvation from the foundation of time out of his own mercy and desire, and that Christ died as a propitiation for his people.
We proclaim a faith that is utterly and completely God-centered. Our God is the source and end of everything that is, both in nature and in grace. He is sovereign in creation, sovereign in redemption, and sovereign in providence. History is nothing less than the outworking of God’s preordained plan.
Walking Without Slipping: Instructions for Local Church Reformation from Founders Ministry
.. The Scriptures teach that Divine sovereignty and human freedom co-operate in perfect harmony; that while God is the sovereign Ruler and primary cause, man is free within the limits of his nature and is the secondary cause; and that God so controls the thoughts and wills of men that they freely and willingly do what He has planned for them to do.
.. God so governs the inward feelings, external environment, habits, desires, motives, etc., of men that they freely do what He purposes.
Loraine Boettner in “Common Objections to the Reformed Doctrine of Predestination” via Alana 5T (“You don’t understand Calvinism!”)
The Destructive Teachings of Lordship Salvation and the Perseverance of the Saints
This is disturbing when put this way towards these kids and the very reason I have issues with Calvinism. Once we accept Christ we are going to Heaven.
Hi Kris,
It is disturbing and it should greatly disturb us. That’s why I wrote it.
I remember Alana saying one of the things that made her question Calvinism was realizing she had to explain election to her children.
It’s one thing to live with the cognitive dissonance caused by Calvinism as an adult. It’s completely different when you have to indoctrinate your own children with it.
Sallie
If anyone reading this doesn’t know who Alana is, I have several posts tagged with her name. Her story out of Calvinism is so helpful.
https://sallieborrink.com/tag/alana-lagares/
Isn’t this just so sad!?! And it’s so disturbing that this theology has taken over the evangelical church with barely any resistance, alarm bells, or pushback. (Calvinism has used good Christians’ desire to be humble and God-honoring against them, against God, making us feel like Calvinism’s TULIP is the most humble, most God-honoring way to believe.)
I often share this long Calvinist quote as “Calvinism in a nutshell,” from Mark Talbot’s book “Suffering and the Sovereignty of God,” with John Piper as editor, pages 42-44 and 70-77 (WARNING: DO NOT READ IF REALLY DISTURBING THINGS TRIGGER YOU. I wonder how Calvinists could read things like this and think, ‘Yeah, that sounds biblical and God-glorifying”. They have to use so much cognitive dissonance, denial, and self-gaslighting/manipulation to believe in Calvinism, to think that God really is this way and that the Bible really does teach this stuff. It just goes to show the cult-like grip Calvinism gets on people’s minds.):
“God brings about all things in accordance with his will. It isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those that love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects… This includes God’s having even brought about the Nazi’s brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Nadar and even the sexual abuse of a young child… God speaks and then brings his word to pass; he purposes and then does what he has planned. Nothing that exists falls outside of God’s ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed. God’s foreordination is the ultimate reason why everything comes about, including the existence of all evil persons and things and the occurrence of any evil acts or events. And so it is not inappropriate to take God to be the creator, the sender, the permitter, and sometimes even the instigator of evil.
… In summary, this means that we should affirm the age-old Christian doctrine of God’s complete providence over all. God has sovereignly ordained, from before the world began, everything that happens in our world… It should be beyond all doubt that no one suffers anything at anyone else’s hand without God having ordained that suffering.
During his first hour or so in Birkenau, Elie Wiesel saw the notorious Joseph Mengele…casually directing [people] either to his left, so that they went immediately to the gas chambers, or to his right to the forced-labor camp. In seeing Mengele, Wiesel was seeing a very evil man whom, nevertheless, God was actively sustaining and governing, nanosecond by nanosecond, through his evil existence. And we can be sure that, from before time began, God had ordained that at that place those moments would be filled with just those persons, doing and suffering exactly as they did… that he actually brought the whole situation about, guiding and governing and carrying it by his all-powerful and ever-effectual word to where it would accomplish exactly what he wanted it to do.
[Footnote in the book (SKIP THIS PART IF IT’S TOO DISTURBING): Mengele was a medical doctor who was nicknamed ‘The Angel of Death.’ He carried out unspeakable experiments on some of his prisoners, including injecting chemicals into children’s eyes in an attempt to change their eye color from brown to the preferred Aryan blue. He would visit the children, acting kindly and bringing them candy and clothing in order to keep them calm and happy, and then transport them in what looked like a Red Cross truck or in his personal vehicle to his laboratory beside the crematoria where he would perform his horrible experiments and then burn their bodies. He specialized in experiments involving identical twins. He was intrigued to see if he could make them differ genetically by, among other horrors, performing sex-change operations on one of them or removing one twin’s limbs or organs in macabre surgical procedures that were performed without the use of anesthesia and that had no scientific basis or value.]
… Even though he ordains all of our free sinful choices, those sinful choices still ‘count’ and we are held responsible for them…. In ordaining the evil works of others, he himself does no wrong, ‘upright and just is he.’… We can be sure, as Scripture confirms, that God has made everything for its purpose, even evil persons like Joseph Mengele or Dennis Rader. We can be sure that God has made our lives’ most evil moments as well as their best….
… I myself find it very difficult to understand how [God can ordain evil for our good] with some of the worst things that human beings do, like sexually abusing young children or raping or torturing someone mercilessly. And, of course, something much less horrible than these sorts of things can happen to us and still leave us wondering how God could be ordaining it for our good. I have seen marriages break apart after thirty-five years and felt to some degree the grief and utter discombobulation of the abandoned spouse. I have watched tragedies unfold that seem to remove all chance for any more earthly happiness…. Many of us have tasted such grief….Yet these griefs have been God’s gifts…. [And in the end, when we see Jesus face-to-face] we will see that God has indeed done all that he pleased and has done it all perfectly, both for his glory and our good…”
So incredibly disturbing! But that’s not all; there’s a lot more disturbing quotes here:
https://anticalvinistrant.blogspot.com/2024/11/but-calvinists-dont-say-god-causes-evil.html
https://anticalvinistrant.blogspot.com/2024/11/it-doesnt-get-more-evil-than-this.html
If more Calvinists knew that this is the heart of Calvinism and knew what Calvinism really teaches – like in your not-so-imaginary Calvinist conversation – there’d be a lot less Calvinists.
(And since so many churches and leading theologians/pastors teach that Calvinism is the gospel, is Christianity, it’s no wonder that so many Calvinists have deconstructed from Christianity recently, tossing out God and faith. Sadly, they don’t realize that Calvinism is a horrible corruption of the gospel, God, Christianity. And so they don’t know enough to know to toss the Calvinism but to keep God, faith, Christianity. So sad.)
I wrote my own not-so-imaginary Calvinist conversation here, to show the difference between what Calvinists say and what they really mean:
https://anticalvinistrant.blogspot.com/2021/12/a-not-so-imaginary-conversation-with.html
Thanks for sharing, Sallie. Keep up the good work. We need every voice speaking out against Calvinism that we can get.