I saw this conversation on Twitter and I had to screenshot it to share here. I know many of my readers aren’t on Twitter and I want you to see it. I also didn’t want it to disappear. (I’ll put the actual Twitter link in the first comment.)
So here’s what was written and I’ll write my thoughts after the screenshots.
I have a lot of thoughts about this I’m still trying to sort out but let’s look at a few off the top of my head.
(To make it clear, I’m not talking about the abusive, arrogant hyper-patriarchy types, but the Christians who sincerely believe that the Bible teaches patriarchy as normal. I’m also not out to defend or refute the finer points of that view in this post. I’m making big picture observations.)
These men who enthusiastically push biblical patriarchy have a few blind spots.
One, they fail to understand what happened before regarding these topics which I’ve already mentioned in a recent post. Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it and I can already see it playing out. See this post and the comment thread. I added quite a bit this morning in the comments by way of follow-up.
Two, they view their sisters in Christ as their adversaries. They don’t fully realize it, but they do. They would say they don’t, but they do. They don’t realize how their dislike of feminists and the damage they have done to our culture seeps over a bit into how they view women even within the body of Christ. Also see my post about adversarial marriage counseling for an example.
Three, they fail to realize that it isn’t as simple as telling women to be content and happy while they stay home and raise a family because the Bible says this is what you should do. To make a major cultural shift like this requires a significant work of the Holy Spirit.
But it also requires a scaffolding of sorts to help women make this change. It’s an entire paradigm shift. Younger women are not getting the support they need to make this shift on top of all of the other once-in-a-millennium upheaval going on in our culture at the same time. What younger women are being force to grapple with as mothers and wives is truly overwhelming. To sort it out in the context of being a Christian adds even more to the situation.
The burnout and overwhelm are REAL. It’s not being addressed and it is a real problem. No wonder these women flock to the sick “Christian women” who tell them they can blow up their lives and have it so much better. No more need to make life-defining decisions for you and your children on a weekly basis. Look at all of the major “Christian” women “influencers” who live completely shipwrecked lives but are out there confidently telling Christian women how to live. Women will look for understanding from other women. If there aren’t biblical examples out there, they will find the flashy trainwrecks who will give them answers in order to make the pain go away.
It’s not as simple as telling women they need to sit in the pew next to their husband and listen to expository sermons in order to fix everything in their lives. Women are much more complex than that and it’s insulting to think that women can simply be reprogrammed to be successful Christian wives and mothers simply because someone tells them this is what the Bible says and therefore if you would just do it all of your struggles would go away. Even women with their hearts totally committed to Christ and following Scripture are going to struggle and it’s cruel to expect otherwise.
These men speak often about the fact that the Bible says the older women are to teach the younger women (but only if it is a very limited list of approved topics and a man is overseeing it). At the same time, the men are suspect of almost all the women they don’t directly control. In the end, I honestly think they don’t trust women. It’s not simply that they believe the Bible forbids certain things. They really don’t trust women. So they don’t trust the older women to help the younger women. And so the destructive cycle continues.
For all of you old-timers out there, doesn’t this sound so terribly familiar?
Twitter link
https://twitter.com/thisisfoster/status/1678757353263431681
Twitter link
https://twitter.com/thisisfoster/status/1678757353263431681
This is what I said when I retweeted it on Twitter. Screencapture and then link.
https://twitter.com/SallieBorrink/status/1679848764561928196
This is what I said when I retweeted it on Twitter. Screencapture and then link.
https://twitter.com/SallieBorrink/status/1679848764561928196
Yes, your responses to this tweet sound SO familiar! Alot of TRUTH bombs in your responses. It is so sad that this is so prevalent and even today.
Yes, your responses to this tweet sound SO familiar! Alot of TRUTH bombs in your responses. It is so sad that this is so prevalent and even today.
Yes. It’s painfully familiar.
A family member’s marriage ended because his wife left in the manner described. Multiple friends have done. One was my mentor in motherhood. It’s beyond what 20/25-year-old me could have imagined of those people.
It’s heartbreaking and all the more reason to heed the Spirit in the “little things.”
Hi Jess,
Good to see you! I know you were blogging during that time and have gone through your own experience of sorting through the carnage. Honestly, there aren’t that many of us who were blogging at the time AND who are still online blogging in the Christian sphere AND still walking with the Lord. So it’s nice to connect with someone who blogged through the mess and gets it.
(Feel free to ignore these questions if you don’t want to get into it.)
Do you observe any discernible pattern in the women you know who walked away? Do you think they were never truly saved? Were they led astray by “progressive Christians” or were they led astray by those who are openly not Christian? I’m still trying to sort out what happened. I’m sure it varies from woman to woman, but I would guess they fall into a few different groups.
Again, feel free to ignore these questions. I won’t be offended at all.
Sallie
The one I know best, who most closely fits the pattern he describes, was given influence early on in the church in her young adult life, had to keep up an “image” as a perceived church leader, and was given a southern “mix” of theology (down here in Texas, there’s a heavy Assemblies-of-God influence that infiltrates even Bible-committed churches down here. Sort of a name-it-and-claim-it, feely, how-I-was-taught, Abba-daddy theology-in-practice that is different than denominations/churches that are more doctrinally centered that I’ve seen in other parts of the country. Additionally, she went through deep “church hurt” that ended up taking them away from the local church about 3-5 years before her affairs.
The others I know about also drifted away from church. I don’t know if this means they are not Christians; I don’t know them well enough. All of them still claim/talk as if they are Christians.
Across the women I can think of who did this, generally, walking away from regular church involvement was a key piece of how they ended up where they got. I have long thought that we have to guard against thinking we are so strong we could never fall, but these examples have driven this lesson deep into my conscience.
Yes. It’s painfully familiar.
A family member’s marriage ended because his wife left in the manner described. Multiple friends have done. One was my mentor in motherhood. It’s beyond what 20/25-year-old me could have imagined of those people.
It’s heartbreaking and all the more reason to heed the Spirit in the “little things.”
Hi Jess,
Good to see you! I know you were blogging during that time and have gone through your own experience of sorting through the carnage. Honestly, there aren’t that many of us who were blogging at the time AND who are still online blogging in the Christian sphere AND still walking with the Lord. So it’s nice to connect with someone who blogged through the mess and gets it.
(Feel free to ignore these questions if you don’t want to get into it.)
Do you observe any discernible pattern in the women you know who walked away? Do you think they were never truly saved? Were they led astray by “progressive Christians” or were they led astray by those who are openly not Christian? I’m still trying to sort out what happened. I’m sure it varies from woman to woman, but I would guess they fall into a few different groups.
Again, feel free to ignore these questions. I won’t be offended at all.
Sallie
The one I know best, who most closely fits the pattern he describes, was given influence early on in the church in her young adult life, had to keep up an “image” as a perceived church leader, and was given a southern “mix” of theology (down here in Texas, there’s a heavy Assemblies-of-God influence that infiltrates even Bible-committed churches down here. Sort of a name-it-and-claim-it, feely, how-I-was-taught, Abba-daddy theology-in-practice that is different than denominations/churches that are more doctrinally centered that I’ve seen in other parts of the country. Additionally, she went through deep “church hurt” that ended up taking them away from the local church about 3-5 years before her affairs.
The others I know about also drifted away from church. I don’t know if this means they are not Christians; I don’t know them well enough. All of them still claim/talk as if they are Christians.
Across the women I can think of who did this, generally, walking away from regular church involvement was a key piece of how they ended up where they got. I have long thought that we have to guard against thinking we are so strong we could never fall, but these examples have driven this lesson deep into my conscience.
This post is relevant if anyone finds this discussion and hasn’t already read it.
https://sallieborrink.com/the-life-lessons-of-warren-wiersbe-rachel-held-evans-and-those-falling-away-by-deconstructing-their-faith/
This post is relevant if anyone finds this discussion and hasn’t already read it.
https://sallieborrink.com/the-life-lessons-of-warren-wiersbe-rachel-held-evans-and-those-falling-away-by-deconstructing-their-faith/
Here is one other thing I’ve noticed lately in terms of how these two movements are different at this point in the process.
The previous crop of pastors/ministry leaders who ended up imploding were more than happy to allow women of all ages to speak freely if they supported the regime talking points. They obviously weren’t allowed to preach in a pulpit, but the “prominent” women, wives, and daughters played a huge role. The regime-approved women and teens spoke at conferences, were held up as examples, published books, wrote for blogs/websites the regime approved of, etc. They were a beautiful element that drew others to the movement.
This current group appears to have no interest in allowing women to have any kind of public ministry. It is very male focused. (I would exclude Doug Wilson from this as his wife and daughters do quite a bit of writing, speaking, podcasting, social media, etc.) But the younger set of men are all about the men being in public and the women being in the home in a far more literal way than the previous group that imploded.
I’m guessing they would say they are “fixing” the mistakes of the past by following the Bible more faithfully and making this choice to remove women from the public discussion.
Sallie
Here is one other thing I’ve noticed lately in terms of how these two movements are different at this point in the process.
The previous crop of pastors/ministry leaders who ended up imploding were more than happy to allow women of all ages to speak freely if they supported the regime talking points. They obviously weren’t allowed to preach in a pulpit, but the “prominent” women, wives, and daughters played a huge role. The regime-approved women and teens spoke at conferences, were held up as examples, published books, wrote for blogs/websites the regime approved of, etc. They were a beautiful element that drew others to the movement.
This current group appears to have no interest in allowing women to have any kind of public ministry. It is very male focused. (I would exclude Doug Wilson from this as his wife and daughters do quite a bit of writing, speaking, podcasting, social media, etc.) But the younger set of men are all about the men being in public and the women being in the home in a far more literal way than the previous group that imploded.
I’m guessing they would say they are “fixing” the mistakes of the past by following the Bible more faithfully and making this choice to remove women from the public discussion.
Sallie
I just skimmed this again when I saw it in the top posts today. Something new jumped out at me regarding point number one.
How many of these women deliberately chose this life?
How many of them had this life chosen for them by their husband because they believe they have no choice but to submit to his leadership? For example, the husband gets inspired by patriarchy and all the sudden the woman finds herself constantly pregnant, making sourdough everything from scratch, and doing many other things that she never planned on but are now required by the patriarch who wants to prove to his friends he can run his home as a patriarch?
How many of them went into marriage in general agreement about what they wanted as a couple, but were not given the option of lessening the dream once the reality of it all became much more difficult?
It would be interesting to know the story behind each destroyed marriage.
I just skimmed this again when I saw it in the top posts today. Something new jumped out at me regarding point number one.
How many of these women deliberately chose this life?
How many of them had this life chosen for them by their husband because they believe they have no choice but to submit to his leadership? For example, the husband gets inspired by patriarchy and all the sudden the woman finds herself constantly pregnant, making sourdough everything from scratch, and doing many other things that she never planned on but are now required by the patriarch who wants to prove to his friends he can run his home as a patriarch?
How many of them went into marriage in general agreement about what they wanted as a couple, but were not given the option of lessening the dream once the reality of it all became much more difficult?
It would be interesting to know the story behind each destroyed marriage.